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tv   The Last Word  MSNBC  May 10, 2011 3:00am-4:00am EDT

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>> here, this is the largest cache of intelligence from my single terrorist. >> the payoff for the raid on osama bin laden's hideout is huge. >> the intelligence officials are giddy about what they found. >> jim on the beat at the pentagon. >> osama bin laden was operation ally and strategically in charge. >> he had fake vag ra or her ball vag ra in there. >> a new nbc news poll -- >> riding high. >> all say the president made the right decision. >> it was the longest 40 minutes of my life. >> he's publicized indecisive. >> his campaign slogan for 2012 was obama obama, he'll [ bleep ] you up. the bush team wants more credit. >> i truly am not that concerned
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about him. >> enhanced interrogation and it worked. >> those techniques that the cia worked. >> we don't have enhanced interrogation anymore. >> if this were my call, i'd have that program ready to go. with bin laden gone, they're afraid of how's republicans. >> john boehner heads to new york today. >> the economic speech. >> work with wall street and obama or chose the tea party. >> chuck schumer saying he should not be cute about the deficit. >> it's a total hoax that they're talking about not raising the debt limit. >> one more republican tells us what we already knew, he's running for president. >> nbc news confirms newt gingrich will officially announce his presidential bid this wednesday. >> a feeling you don't really want to be. would you like to duck out early? >> yeah, i'd love to. >> have a good one. >> there was a republican last night. it was a virtual who's who of who? >> i just hope that tonight the lame stream media won't twist my
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words by repeating them ver bat im. the new nbc news "the wall street journal" poll shows the majority of americans approve of the job barack obama is president. it's only the second time since october of 2009 that the president's approval has been higher than 50%. the number of people who say they view president obama positively is at 54%. and 53% gave president obama a very good rating for his ability to handle a crisis. his highest rating since april of 2009. but the successful mission to get the world's most wanted terrorist wasn't a crisis. the president set a goal, a clear limited goal to get osama bin laden and then with his team pursued that goal carefully, deliberately and thoroughly as the president explained in an interview with "60 minutes." >> shortly after i got into office i brought leon panetta
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privately into the oval office. i said to him, we need to redouble our efforts in hunting bin laden down. and i want us to start putting more resources, more focus and more urgency into that mission. what i told them when they first came to me with this evidence, is even as you guys are building a stronger intelligence case, let's also start building an action plan to figure out if in fact we make a decision that this is him or we've got a good chance that we've got him, how are we going to deal with him? >> the president also pointed out that the debate among his team in the situation room was a key element in this success. >> every time i sit down in the situation room, every one of my advisors around there knows i expect them to give me their best assessments. so the fact that there were some who voiced doubts about this approach was invaluable because it meant the plan was sharper.
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it meant that we had thought through all of our options. it meant when i finally did make the decision, i was making it based on the very best information. >> the president admitted he was nervous about the mission, though now about its objective. >> at the end of the day, this was still a 54/45 situation. i mean, we could not say definitively that bin laden was there. had he not been there, then there could have been significant consequences. it was the longest 40 minutes of my life with the possible exception of when sasha got meningitis when she was 3-month-olds. it was a very tense situation. >> were you nervous? >> as nervous as i was about this whole process, the one
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thing i didn't lose sleep over was the possibility of taking bin laden out. justice was done. and i think that anyone who would question that the perpetrator of mass murder on american soil didn't deserve what he got needs to have their head examined. joining me now is eugene robinson a brighter for "the washington post" and an msnbc political analyst. >> great to be here, lawrence. >> gene, is it your sense that this is a minor polling bump for the president or has something fundamentally changed in the political landscape? >> i go with option b. i think this is a fundamental change. the numbers will go up. they'll go down. but i think there has been a fundamental change in the way a lot of people see president obama. you saw that kind of steeliness. there's a little bit of clint
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eastwood in that "60 minutes" interview. that's a side of the president that i think it's been there all the time. i think people haven't really seen it or seen it as that. and so i do think that's a fundamental change in his relationship with some americans. >> this is that 3:00 a.m. phone call that was first raised in the democratic primary campaign for president where the clinton camp raised the question of, was barack obama ready for that middle of the night situation room commander in chief decision making. and this seems to put that question to rest. >> i think you have to say it puts that question to rest. and look, you see the pictures of president in the situation room with all the national security officials and they're looking at the monitors.
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you know, these visuals are important and i think they re-enforce the image of this as a president who has taken that 3:00 a.m. phone call and will take the next one and will handle the situations appropriately as they come up. >> now the nbc news poll asked people who they planned to vote for for president. 45% said they'd probably vote for president obama. that's up a couple of points. 30% say they will probably vote for the republican. that's down from 38% last month. each one of those versions of it were good for president obama, but what does this do to the republican approach to campaigning against barack obama? it seems like that 3:00 a.m. phone call opening is no longer there. >> yeah, i think the whole national security question that there's something wobbly on national security about obama, i think that's off the table. i actually think the really important figure in that poll was that -- that 5% change drop
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in -- or increase, rather in the number of people who said -- whether or not they vote on a republican depends on the republican candidate. went up from 11% to 16%. that's not where the republicans want to be right now. because if you notice there was a republican debate last week that didn't exactly present a passel of candidates that were going to take on barack obama. if it's anybody by obama, sure the gop is sitting pretty. if it's candidate to candidate, mano a mano, obama already beats everybody major republican one-on-one. i think those margins probably have increased over the last week and you'll see that in the next individual polls. >> gene, the next big fight is obviously the debt ceiling and how to get an agreement on how to raise the debt ceiling which is going to have to happen at some point in the summer. what does this do for the president's credibility in that
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fight? is there any cary recovery from an event like this into a showdown over the debt ceiling, especially when there's talk of crisis. the president will be talking of the crisis that we don't raise the debt ceiling. polling indicates that the country doesn't believe that it will be a great disaster if we don't raise the debt ceiling. does this somehow adds to the president's strength going into that? >> i think it does. but in this particular fight, i think it doesn't give him a whole lot extra. it adds incrementally re-enforces his hand. i think it's a different kind of fight. the whole budget issue has helped but not a whole lot. >> gene robinson, thanks very much for joining us tonight. >> great to be here. recycled audiotapes of bin laden are beginning to surface. international news service afp says a purported tape has been posted on an al qaeda website. authenticity has yet to be confirmed. one terrorism consultant tells nbc that the audiotape is
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recycled material and was already released six months ago. experts continue to analyze the five home videos of osama bin laden released by the pentagon over the weekend. the videos were taken from the pakistan compound where bin laden has been hiding. most of the video clips show bin laden delivering his anti-american, anti-capitalism messages in front of a plain background as we've seen before. one video shows the al qaeda leader in a much different light. a more feeble white-bearded bin laden sits on the floor wrapped in a blanket watching himself on a small television. white house press secretary jay carney explained today why the u.s. decided to release the videos. >> the point of releasing them was to prevent the release of videos in the future that would allow -- give al qaeda some sort of propaganda to make the point
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that we got these -- procured these at the compound where bin laden was living and that we -- know now what he was up to. joining me now counterterrorism intelligence expert and ceo of sbel center. ben, thanks for joining me tonight. what is the impact of the release of these videos on al qaeda when they see, jay carney was say, we want to show them we really did collect material there. and in fact, we collected a lot more. the videos are just the tip of a giant iceberg of material collected. and so who are they really showing these videos to? >> well, i think, you know, exactly as he was saying it's evidence that we were really there we were in the compound where bin laden was located not some other location or some other kind of conspiracy. in terms of the al qaeda followers and members and supporters, i don't think it's going to have much of an impact at all.
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they'll look at them with curiosity, but really what they're going to be waiting for is the official messages from bin laden where you can hear his audio. hear what he's saying ant get his take. there is supposed to be one last message that we're expecting to come out that he recorded a week before he died. >> as you understand it, there is an authenticated bin laden tape that will come out that he managed to get out of the compound so that it will come out soon? >> according to al qaeda when they released their written statement confirming his death, they said that he had recorded a imagine on the sweeping changes that we were seeing in the middle east a week prior. that fits sort of the time line of when we would have expected it to come out based on world events if this raid had not happened. apparently, it had already left the compound and is in process. >> now, where does al qaeda go
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from here without bin laden who it seems to me, seems what we're getting out of the compound was clearly operational and in a command facility there. >> most definitely. there was sort of a public prevailing wisdom that he was disconnected and not part of the group. i think now that's been sort of shot down. he was still active. he was communicating with his followers. it's a loss. it's a loss for the group. it's going to have some negative impact. however, this is a foreseeable event for al qaeda. this is something that they knew was of high risk. it was likely to happen. all of these organizations tell to beery sill yent because they've built in contingency planning. you might lose charisma or some special relationships. there's going to be people stepping into that void. >> i want you to listen to what tom donlin said on "meet the
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press" yesterday. >> this is the largest cache of intelligence from any single terrorist. it's about the size of a small college library. >> a small college library. sounds like they'll be working on this material for quite some time to come. is this the single most valuable grab that we've made in the hunt for intelligence on terrorism? >> well i think, you know, there have been very important ones that have been very small and focused over the last decade, but i think in terms of being able to see, get a window into the senior leadership and from the top down of the al qaeda organization, this is probably without a doubt the single greatest. >> ceo of intel center. thank you for joining me tonight. >> thank you. coming up, the politics of torture return with the cheneys and rumsfeld demanding credit. for getting osama bin laden. and john mccain's campaign manager joins us to discuss republican presidential candidates.
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still to come this hour, the bush team congratulates itself for torturing detainees and speaker john boehner just told a wall street audience that any raising of the debt ceiling must come with spending cuts.
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this evening john boehner spoke to the bankers of new york. these same would street executives have been terrified
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by the juvenile talk coming from house republicans about refusing to raise the debt ceiling. speaker boehner told them that the house of representatives will pass legislation raising the debt ceiling before the august 2nd deadline if and only if that legislation includes certain conditions. >> without significant spending cuts and changes in the way we spend the american people's money, there will be no increase in the debt limit. and the cuts should be greater than the accompanying increase many the debt limit that the president is given. we're talking about billions here. we should be talking about cuts in trillions if we're serious about addressing america's fiscal problems. these should be actual cuts. real reforms to those programs. not broad deficit or deficit targets that punt the questions to the future. and with the exception of tax hikes, which in my opinion will destroy american jobs rg
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everything is on the table. and i mean everything. that includes honest conversations of how to best preserve medicare because without a change in medicare with millions of baby boomers about to retire, the status quo is unsustainable. >> those conditions will not be enough to satisfy tea party voters according to the chair of the tea party founding fathers who spoke at the national press club in washington earlier today. >> the tea party plans to score just one vote in the u.s. house for purposes of candidate ratings this year. if you vote to raise the debt ceiling, you get a zero for the year from the tea party.
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if you don't vote to raise the debt ceiling you score 100 and you're a hero. i wish our tearful house speaker would just show some compassion for american tax payers and our children that he and mr. layian have already surrendered to president obama. it's a cowardly act of treason against coming generations and we may be able to give boehner really something to cry about in 2012. >> joining me now labor secretary during the clinton administration robert riesh. thank you for joining me tonight. >> good evening, lawrence. >> i don't know if you had a monitor to see who actually appeared at the national press club in washington, it is a new low. he appeared in costume as a pretend founding father outraged
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at the notion of raising the debt ceiling, which of course the founding fathers would have understood it's imperative to maintain the credit rating of the united states of america. is john boehner actually going to end up stuck toeing the tea party line here or the line that wall street wanted to hear tonight, which is that he is going to raise the debt ceiling with or without conditions when the moment comes no matter what? >> well, john boehner was threatening a very -- was threading a have very tiny needle today. on the one hand, wuf the wall street rg big business wing of the republican party, they want the debt ceiling raised. they are worried with good reason if the debt ceiling is not raised, that could spook world credit markets that could lead to a huge spike in interest rates, the dollar could plummet, we could put the full faith and credit of the united states in
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jeopardy. on the other hand, you've got the tea party wing kpempllyfied by the fellow you just showed on this program, and they don't want the debt ceiling raised. they don't want to raise any taxes even on the rich. those two sides of the party can't be reconciled. john boehner tried to reconcile them. he said much more that the party would agree with than wall street would agree with. john boehner knows that wall street and big business are going to be funding the republican party in any event. they need the tea partiers in 2012 to get out the vote. that's what they're the most interested and concerned about. >> the chief economist for moodies told bloomberg news today speaking for wall street, what wall street wants to hear is that they are going to raise the debt ceiling in a timely way when it comes down to brass tracks they are going to raise that debt ceiling. that is not what john boehner
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told them tonight. he gave them one of those there will be -- he said there will be no debt limit increase unless republicans get their way on everything. this had to leave those wall street operatives really worried when they left the boehner speech tonight. >> i would think so. in a way, lawrence, he thumbed his nose at wall street. he also, though, if you read between the lines, you read between the lines and i do as well, he also said everything's on the table except tax increases. that's a problem because nobody in america is going to really be in favor of the kind of cuts that john baner and paul ryan want. and certainly even a 64% of republicans in the latest "the washington post" abc poll say they wanted taxes to be raised on the rich. 64% of republicans said that. so john boehner is really in trouble with a lot of the rank and file if he pursues the direction he's going in. he also said that he would reconsider medicare. it looks as though that a lot of republicans who went home for
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the holidays they got an earful from their constituents about the paul ryan plan to get rid of medicare and turn it into a voucher program. they don't like that. nobody likes it. i think that boehner is backing away from that. >> big surprise, medicare is popular. i don't know why their polls didn't tell them that already. >> the odd thing, lawrence, is that one year ago republicans remember they were claiming that the democrats' health care bill was going to wreck medicare and destroy medicare. they were using medicare to clobber the democrats and to think that the americans have such a short attention span. how can they possibly believe that the attention span is that short? >> they very specifically rose as the defenders of medicare posed as the defenders of medicare in the health care reform debate saying you can't touch it in any way. and here they are. robert riesh, former labor secretary, thank you for joining me tonight. >> thanks, lawrence.
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coming up, why the use of torture made it harder to find bin laden. that's in the rewrite. and, he's taking all week to make an announcement about running for president. steve submit senior advisor to john mccain in 2008 joins me to talk about newt and the republican field. ?@?@?@?@?@?@?@@
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here's reason 9,323,991 why new yorkers cannot ever rely exclusively on "times" as their daily newspaper. in the 15th paragraph of the sunday "times" lead story about bin laden, it described what was
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found by his bedside. the pakistanis also found an extract of wild oats that can be taken for an upset stomach, but is also marketed as an afro diaz yak. here's now with the the new york post" treated the very same information. first, they gave it what it deserves a special box and the headline "mr. softy" then reported, it will be a real downer for his 72 virgins. osama bin laden kept a stash of a natural form of viagra next to his bed. showing a softer side to the hardened terrorist. "the new york post" always user friendly, never subtle and never forces you to hunt for the good stuff. still ahead, members of the bush administration continue to try to take credit for the killing of osama bin laden. and the republican presidential
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newt gingrich you're never going to be president, and i have a feeling you don't really want to be. would you like to duck out early? >> yeah, i'd love to. >> have a good one. >> bye, newt. in the spotlight tonight newt gingrich almost made it official today. he announced on facebook that he's going to go on a certain cable news network later this week, guess which one to quote, talk about my run for president of the united states. gingrich has spent the past several months raising money assembling a cam tan team and visiting early primary states. he has spent the past several years manipulating a group he started called american solutions for winning the future to serve his own political ends.
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in the last election cycle american solutions was third among all advocatesy groups in fundraising taking in around $28.7 million. gingrich spent $3.6 million of the group's money on private jets in 2009 and 2010. in contrast mitt romney spent $173,000 during the same period on his political travel. gingrich's empire includes gingrich production which has produced films about energy, rond reagan and the threat of radical islam. as a joint project with the conservative activist group citizens united, gingrich's spokesman said he should be compared to the ceo of pepsi, not other candidates when considering his expenses. joining me now in an exclusive interview is steve schmidt a senior campaign advisor to senator john mccain's 2008 presidential cam tan. steve, welcome back to tv.
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>> thank, lawrence. >> this is your first on camera in over a year. >> a long time. you're ready. >> i'll do my best. >> gingrich entering the race. the field is taking shape. there's been a lot of speculation most of the year about people who really aren't going to run. palin's out. she's not going to run. >> i don't think you know. i don't think anybody can predict what she's going to do in the race. i think the field is driving demand for other candidates to get in the race. i think you may see candidates get into this race as late as the fall. >> who can reasonably get in this as late as the fall who would believe as a presidential republican campaign operative someone can say to that person you can win. >> one of the lessons of the mccain campaign and his come
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back in the fall is you need a lot less money to win the republican nomination in today's day and age then you used to have to raise to be able to communicate the message. we live in an inner connected social media world. we live in an age where someone can catch fire quickry. they can raise money very fast on the internet. i think there are governors out there like chris cristy who has all but ruled it out. maybe left himself a little opening. i think mitch daniels should he decide to run would be a formidable candidate. john huntsman, you saw a preview of the message that's not a hostile message. that's soothing in tone to the american people. i thought he had a very good debut in weekend in south carolina. i think both governor romney very accomplished person, governor paw lentity, a successful governor. but i think part of the problem that republicans have had so far is there's a serious campaign
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there, but overshadowing it is a reality show. where we have all matter of candidates, the donald trumps spouting this mosaic of nonsense day in, day in and out is trvlizing serious issues and trivialing a group of what i think at the end of the day could be somewhat compelling candidates. >> the official pick for the republican nomination for this show is former governor tim pawlenty, for me it has been a process of elimination. i see each one of the other candidates has something so seriously wrong with their candidacy. the health care situation for romney and all sorts of identifiable items for everybody else. pawlenty has problems they are very small problems compared to what the other ones have to overcome. my theory is he's the last one standing for the nomination. >> i got to see him out in 2008 out on the stump fairly frequently. he's not bad at all. he's pretty good. he can connect with an audience. he has an ability to communicate
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to the middle of the country. i think he can be competitive in states the republicans have to win to win the presidency like pennsylvania and ohio and you know, states like minnesota, obviously where he is from. he's going to be a strong candidate in this republican field. and i think for sure he's going to be one of the finalists. >> santorum really running for vice president. pennsylvania, it's a good state to have on the vice presidential slot? >> i do think if you listen to him, i think he will connect with social issues voters. he speaks their language. iowa's a state that pat robertson won in the first caucuses. there is absolutely some ox yen in this race for rick santorum -- >> especially in huckabee doesn't get in.
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>> particularly if huckabee doesn't get in. you know, governor huckabee who is a compelling presence out on the stump. he did a great job in the campaign last time. when he was new and fresh, i think you know, both rick santorum, i don't think she's prepared to be president, watch michelle back hahn has the ability to excite value voters in iowa. >> what's your gut say about what the killing of osama bin laden does to this campaign going forward? >> well, i think that there have been these questions very unfairly raise over the last two years that are fundamentally about the president's americanness. that's these questions of citizenship and birth or about. what you saw was a decision making process that was impeccable, a. and b, this was a political courageous decision of the first order. there were comparisons to jimmy carter in the air. it had this very daring mission done south it would have been politically disastrous for him. he ignored all of the political consequences.
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he executed his oath of as commander in chief of this country. he brought justice to osama bin laden on behalf of the american people. and i think that -- that republicans are making a big mistake to continue to ignore the voices in the party that are fringe voices, you know, on these questions. it's time for republicans en masse to start calling it out. rond reagan used to talk about the fact we don't have political enemies in this country, we have political opponents. president obama did a fine job here. there is room to disagree with him on policy without the type of rhetoric that we've seen directed at him that's just off the wall for some kwaerts. i think to the extent that the donald trumps of the world are indulged in this process that it really hurts the republican field.
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it trivials serious issues and it denies republicans the ability to communicate a pratt form and alternative vision particularly on economic issues. >> steve schmidt, i only want you to say things that wise only on msnbc so the helps don't hear it. thank you for joining me tonight. >> you bet. coming up, the renewed debate over torture continues. did enhanced interrogation techniques hurt or help the hunt for osama bin laden. that's in the rewrite.
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and in trump news tonight, the vulgarian told the following lie on "fox and friends" this morning quote, when it comes to racism andresists i am the least racist person there is. and the ratings for his nbc show have collapsed. sunday night's three-hour edition of the trump show led nbc to a fourth place finish in prime time. that's four out of four for the major broadcast networks. the most-watched hour of the night was the interview with president obama on "60 minutes" on his decision to send navy s.e.a.l.s to osama bin laden's compound.
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after the break, members of the bush administration try to rewrite history when it comes to waterboarding. [ female announcer ] every morning, all across america,
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i asked a former military interrogator about this. we just heard donald rumsfeld feld say that anyone, anyone who suggests that the enhanced techniques waterboarding did not produce an enormous amount of valuable evidence just isn't facing the truth. did we get an enormous amount of valuable intelligence from waterboarding? >> what former secretary rumsfeld should explain to us then is how come we didn't find or locate osama bin laden back when other detainees were exposed to other interrogation techniques. >> that same interrogator said, i think that without a doubt torture and enhanced interrogation techniques slowed down the hunt for bin laden. says that the detainees subjected to torture quote, gave us a bare minimum amount of
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information they could get away with to get the pain to stop or to mislead us. i never saw enhanced interrogation techniques work in iraq. i never even saw harsh techniques work in iraq. in every case, i saw them slow us down. and they were always counterproductive to trying to get people to cooperate. those views were echoed last week on this program by mark fallen who was an interrogator at guantanamo bay. so how do you pick a winner in the debate over the most effective interrogation techniques between people like dick cheney and donald rumsfeld who have never conducted an interrogation and the actually interrogators i just cited.
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enter this study the military's accredited institution tasked with educating the department and agencies of intelligence and homeland security communities. the study is entitled "edeucing information, interrogation science and art." it comes down on the side of the interrogators who have appeared on this program. it does so in careful academic language. quote, the very nature of the use of physical force would seem to undermine the likelihood of useful connection with a source. it might also increase a source's hatred of the united states and interest in suicide or willingness to be killed. note the word might in that sentence. that's what i mean about careful academic language. it might. what they're saying is, torture might increase a source's hatred of the united states.
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keep that sort of understatement in mind as you consider the language of this military study on torture. in the course of an interrogation, errors in strait ji, approach planning and actions are in many instances irreversible. the use of force by the united states may also have caused short and long-term damage to u.s. interests and credibly some of which may not be known. and in its key findings on enhanced interrogation techniques the study says the preponderance of reports seems to weigh against their effectiveness. in nonacademic language, torture doesn't work. ugh, my feet are killin' me.
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before president bam explained on "60 minutes" last night how methodically his national security team put together the plan to kill osama bin laden, key player from the george w. bush white house flooded the sunday morning talk shows. they claimed the enhanced interrogation techniques including waterboarding which president obama has called torture made the difference in cracking the case. >> it provided some absolutely vital pieces of intelligence. if it were my call, i'd have that program ready to go on the chance that any day we may capture detainee with a vital piece of information about the next attack or about some new development and i think that
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program provides us with the capacity to collect that intelligence. >> i think it's clear that those techniques that the cia used worked. to have taken them away abruled them out i think they be a mistake. >> it's not clear to me that we have any way to effectively interrogate them. we don't have enhanced interrogation anymore. we read people the miranda rights. >> you can't deny we got valuable information from these folks. director panetta went on to say it may be an open question if we got it through other means. this way worked. >> joining me now stephen kleinmann a former senior sever gator in both iraq wars. >> thank you for having me. >> i want to get to this point, let's get past the question of exactly what did we get through these enhanced techniques. but the question of timing which was raised in this article today which i just discussed in the
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previous segment. could we have gotten this information, whatever information we got, could we have obtained it faster if these techniques had not got engine the way? >> that's the correct assessment. the element of interrogation, what works, what's scientifically demonstrated efficacy of the approach the parkt approach is going to work. there's no shortcut. there's no time expedient approach. it's not backed up by what we know from science. >> in the military study citing in the last segment, it indicates that it is likely to be counterproductive. it is likely to increase the suggest's hatred of the united states. increase the resistance. and produce just enough information to make the pain stop. >> that's correct. what's more important is the fundamentalal objective is to get access to an individual's
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uncorrupted, reliable memory. and research again is very clear on the fragility of human memory under the best circumstances. imagine introduces waterboard or the anxiety that comes from continued threats of sleep deprivation. even if somebody wished to provide information, their ability to do so is severely undermined. >> and in this evaluation of the information that they would be getting from waterboarding, if they're saying, if the bush administration is saying, look, we just found out in effect last sunday what the verdict is on torture because we found out that it led to eventually osama bin laden, doesn't that mean that for many years they didn't have any idea what the quality of the information was that they got out of those techniques? >> it suggests precisely that. you can't take two data points and extrapolate to infinity. that's illogical.
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the key to understand is until the intelligence science board study that you referenced earlier, the last time the united states funded any real objective research into interrogation was 1956. so it's time that we bring interrogation up to the 21st century alongside other tactical intelligence methods. so we don't have these debates based on politics or personal interest, but over science of what works and what doesn't work. >> it seems the reports we're getting from the experienced interrogators in this territory, it's the overall thrust of it is that it just doesn't work and that the more careful, cultivating a relationship with the subject is what is going to pay off both quicker and longer term. >> that's absolutely correct. the single quality, the single approach that i hear from the best interrogators that america's produced is simply this, empathy.
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>> you bring up another question that pulls away the threads of the argument in favor of coercion. if i may, this topic or the tile of enhanced, i think it's time that we dispense with that. enhanced interrogation when it uses sensory deprivation or sleep deprivation is a euphemism. it's not advanced. it's not a more sfis skated approach to interrogation. it's a step down. >> former military intelligence officer. thanks for injure time tonight. >> thank you, sir. >> that's all the time we have for tonight. "rachel maddow show" is up next. >> good evening. thank you.


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